Montilla y Mas, facing the challenges of today’s Catalonia

On the 50th anniversary of the Onze de Setembre of 1976, La Vanguardia brought together this week the former presidents of the Generalitat José Montilla and Artur Mas to talk about what the first Diada authorized after Franco’s death meant, and the challenges of today’s Catalonia.

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Were you at the 1976 Diada, in Sant Boi?

José Montilla: I was in the military service in Paterna, Valencia. Otherwise, I would have attended because I had been politically active for years. I had gone to some Onze de Setembre when it was not tolerated.

Artur Mas: I was. I also did the military service, but in a different way… especially in terms of timing.

What did that Diada mean?

AM: It had been very shortly after Franco’s death, we were under dictatorship, but there was a desire for change and that was stronger. There was a will for freedom, self-government, the Statute, amnesty, to turn the page on a dark period.

JM: It was very clear that a stage was closing. The possibility of making a political reform law, that December, which I voted for, was the death certificate of the Franco regime. Therefore, with hope, despite uncertainties.

Today we see democracy threatened by the far right. How do we face that challenge?

JM: From different fronts and the whole of society. Surely we should not talk so much about the far right, but rather try to solve the underlying problems it raises and that find receptivity in part of the citizenry.

AM: We have to analyze what causes that growth, where traditional parties have failed. And here there are issues that should be addressed with consensus, such as identity, which many see as threatened; demography, which includes migratory flows, birth rates, and aging, and also how we ensure the European welfare state without a dynamic economy to support it. And if we talk about democratic health, we must reflect: democracy, the welfare state, rights and freedoms are achievements we must strive to maintain, with a reformist will.

Where is the red line with the far right? Pacts yes or no?

JM: Obviously, you will not make pacts with political formations with which you have very little in common, if any. Some parties are very clear that they do not make pacts with Vox or Aliança Catalana because there is no affinity. I do not mean that I do not consider some of the problems they raise to be real. If anything, the disagreement is on the solutions to be implemented, whether regarding identity, immigration, the social equation, or the defense of democracy.

AM: We have to ask ourselves if a cordon sanitaire works. It has been applied in many European countries and has not prevented the growth of these parties. Another reflection is that democracy means that what you do not like also has the right to exist. And in Catalonia, the growth of the far right will complicate everything due to political fragmentation. Traditional parties must find ways to be attractive, with courage and a desire for change and to build majorities, facing the complex challenges we have, not confronting each other while the extremes grow.

To be specific, President Mas, can you make a pact with Aliança?

AM: I am in favor of confronting those you consider not good for the system you have and the country you represent. Looking the other way, pretending they do not exist, is a mistake because they are there and growing everywhere. If Aliança or Vox have representation in the Parliament, you have to talk to them, another thing is reaching agreements, which is good but not mandatory. You must know the limits of dialogue and agreements.

President Montilla, should we talk with the far right?

JM: I think when they talk about a sanitary belt they mean government agreements, that is, to facilitate, support or form governments, and that is more complicated. There are coincidences in votes, but facilitating far-right government positions is a mistake for democrats and has nothing to do with not considering that they are representatives of the people. They are. But facilitating governments generates servitudes and is more dangerous.

We learned this week about the PISA report. How do we face this problem with education?

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JM: It is not just a problem in Catalonia, with all the incidents that have occurred. Regarding the PISA report, some point out that there may be a methodological problem, changes they have introduced. The OECD also referred to the lack of reading comprehension attributed to TikTok videos and that boys and girls do not maintain attention beyond 400 words. I think it is a combination of things. Resources will always be insufficient, but they are increasing. There are more teachers. There is greater diversity, it is true, there is the challenge of inclusive schooling and the problems it generates. The Administration has its responsibility, as an educational administration, but also parents, teachers, and the whole of society.

AM: Especially in the last decade we have had warnings that reforms are needed in the education system. It does not work well and the complexity of classrooms exceeds the capacities of teachers. It must be resolved. And also provide stability in the legal framework. And I am pleased that we are with President Montilla. When he was president, in 2009, and I was leader of the opposition, having won the elections, instead of just being angry and throwing plates at each other, we agreed on the Catalan Education Law and it has not been touched. Being different parties, we reached a great agreement on a country issue like this.

Another problem is access to housing, what do we do?

JM: I think the problem is solved by building housing. If there is no supply, you cannot meet demand. Public supply, for purchase and rent, and private supply. The administration will not solve the problem alone, neither by making laws nor housing programs. It will need the active participation of the private sector and creating conditions so that private developers can also build rental and sale housing. But it is not easy in a fragmented parliament like in Catalonia and with sometimes tactical, even theatrical, positions on housing.

AM: There are no magic solutions. The countries that have done better have invested heavily in protected public housing for decades. In Catalonia, this problem was not so big. For me, a concert between administrations and developers is needed for housing construction. Second, a broad consensus legal framework, stripped of ideology and that does not change, and third, if you do not have public housing and there is a supply of private housing, second hand, offices and premises that are surplus, you have to stimulate putting them on the market.

Another pending issue is how to manage immigration.

JM: It is a problem that comes from far away. The great growth of Catalonia, not due to birth rate but immigration, occurred from the late nineties until 2011. In the current decade it is growing again and it is necessary to strengthen the programs that were already implemented then, the Generalitat, in concert with municipalities, and social programs. And with the agreement of the most central political formations in the Parliament. With positive and non-exclusionary proposals.

AM: Catalonia is a country of immigration. We can talk about language, culture, traditions, history, institutions, but we are also defined by being a country of immigration. It is our reality and we cannot stop it completely, but we can put order and control, and we cannot do it alone, as Catalans. No matter what some say. We neither have the powers nor the dimension. There are tools to stop this and put order. It must be a serious European policy, with resources and regulations. And selection of migration at origin.

What solution do you see for the Catalonia-Spain fit?

JM: It must be done within the framework of a Constitution, which I would like to be reformed, of a more federal State. Also to enable greater self-government. That is important, but there are urgent things. Let’s take advantage of the balance of forces to substantially improve financing and reduce the debt by 17 billion. It is very important. And we are playing it out in the remainder of the legislature in Spain. I hope Catalan parties defending self-government make it possible.

AM: Here, we probably disagree a bit. We can agree on more resources and less debt, but if we talk about coexistence in the years ahead, I think Catalonia can only feel comfortable within the State framework if it is seriously plurinational and that means less Madrid and more nations, and recognition at least of the right to self-determination. I do not know if that would at some point lead to a Catalan majority for independence or not.

About financing, President Mas, what do you say about the opportunities of this legislature?

AM: It all depends on managing expectations. If you say you will get almost the economic concert, the collection, the fiscal management, and in the end what you have is more money, someone will say it is more or less like always…

JM: It is not just more money.

AM: But we have not achieved the concert. We would get into technical mechanisms, but the adjusted population is to balance the numbers, it is not of interest to Catalonia, nor that ordinality is not well defined.

JM: Ordinality is there.

AM: Not guaranteed. What I say is, if in the end it is more money, well, hopefully. But if we talk about coexistence in the future it is another dimension. I started by saying that we would probably disagree…

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JM: It is normal. You are an independentist and I am a federalist.